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Debate with convert Donald Morgan part 7

Donald Morgan

ALI SINA’S ‘BACK UP’ PLAN

On page 70 in Ali Sina’s book he states the following, and I quote:

‘Narcissists do not directly promote themselves. They hide behind the veneer of modesty, while they elevate their god, ideology, cause or religion, which in reality is their own alter ego. They may present themselves as mere messengers, simple, humble, self-effacing heralds of this or that mighty and all-powerful deity, or all-encompassing cause, but they make it clear that they are the only ones who know the cause and are extremely intolerant and unforgiving of dissenters and recalcitrants’

 

 

This passage automatically set off ‘red flags’ for me when I read it. The reason it raised suspicion is because there was no footnote attached. This statement did not come from a reference or a ‘qualified’ resource. It didn’t even come from Dr. Sam Vaknin fake Ph.D. Where did this passage come from? If it came from some resource, Ali Sina would have listed it in a footnote! If this statement did not come from a reference or resource it must have come directly from Ali Sina himself. I asked myself again and again, why Ali Sina would place this in his book if it didn’t come from a qualified psychiatric professional. Then, like a ton of bricks, the answer hit me. This is Ali Sina’s ‘back up’ plan. This is the ‘backdoor’ by which Ali Sina can escape when confronted with overwhelming evidence. In a sense, this is the ‘cop out’ Ali Sina can use at his discretion when proof of Muhammad not suffering from NPD is brought to the table. It occurred to me that it doesn’t matter how many examples from the Hadith or the Quran, about Muhammad, that would disqualify him as being a NPD sufferer were brought to the table because in the end, Ali Sina could always use his ‘back up’ plan or ‘backdoor’ by saying:

‘Narcissists do not directly promote themselves. They hide behind

the veneer of modesty, while they elevate their god, ideology, cause or

religion, which in reality is their own alter ego.’ (pay close attention to the bold writing)

An example of how this ‘back up’ plan can be deployed when needed is the following hypothetical (made up) conversation:

Me: Ali Sina, Muhammad was offered status, money and keys to the Kabbah by the pagan Arabs in exchange for the immediate halt of his message of Islam. Muhammad replied saying that if they (pagan Arabs) were to place the moon in his left hand and the sun in his right hand, he would never give up the message (Islam), which was sent by God. If Muhammad had NPD, and NPD sufferers crave power and status, he would have taken this offer, as it gave him what every NPD sufferer craves, ‘Status’. The fact that he rejected this offer and took exile from Makkah as a result, shows he does not have NPD.

Ali Sina: Well Saadiq, you see, a narcissist hides behind the veneer of modesty, while they elevate their god, so this evidence you provide is no proof that Muhammad was not a narcissist.

Can you, the reader, see how this statement in Ali Sina’s book is nothing more than a dirty tactic he can use to get out of any conversation? The unbiased person who reads this can see it clearly!

This statement could be used to disqualify any evidence or proof that is brought up by myself or others. I know that by the end of this debate, Ali Sina will use this excuse, or one like it to wiggle his way out of the evidence I bring forth. All I ask is that the readers remember one thing. This statement about NPD did NOT come from a qualified professional! It is the workings and ideology of Ali Sina, who is NOT a qualified psychiatrist, nor an authority on the subject of mental disorders or narcissism. If the readers of this debate are able to see beyond this obvious deception, made by Ali Sina, they, like me, can say that this statement is worthless, as it did not come from a qualified reference or resource. Thus, it can’t be used in the argument.

 

Ali Sina

How do you know I am or I am not a mental health professional? I have not spoken of my professional background. Did Gabriel whisper it in your ear this? Don’t trust that guy. He lied to Muhammad a lot and told him a lot of stupid things that we are now finding in the Quran. He could be deceiving you too.

Now as far as that statement, yes it is mine, but you are not qualified to opine on it unless you show your qualification. By the way you conducted yourself in writing this so called rebuttal and the logical fallacies that you used I doubt you have a university qualification. Unless you got your diploma from a university in an Islamic country most universities churn their graduated a lot more familiar with logics.

Yes that statement is true. Narcissists never promote themselves directly. They are always the champions of a cause, a belief, something bigger then themselves.  I have shown examples of various famous narcissists, and their causes, and their cults in my book. Narcissists are not fool. They know how to manipulate people. No one would follow another person without a cause, but if you give them a cause, something big, something worthy to die for, you can have them in your hand like putty. This cause can be nationalism, communism, socialism, fascism, monotheism, or whatever, but not capitalisms because capitalism is individualistic. No one will want to sacrifice himself for capitalism. It defeats the purpose. But if you excite people about the causes that require one-for-all-and-all-for-one mentality, you can create a cult around yourself.  

Nonetheless, I did not refute the silly claim that Meccans offered wealth to Muhammad to stop preaching with this logic because it is a stupid and false claim. It just goes against reason. Imagine the scenario that  the wealthy people of Mecca gather and say, this lunatic Muhammad had gathered a few slaves and low life moron around himself and is insulting our gods. So let all of us dig into our pockets and make him the wealthiest man in Mecca. Isn’t that laughable? How much one must be stupid to believe in this nonsense? Two minutes of rational thinking would prove all the claims of Islam are false, but alas a billion Muslims rehash these stupidities for 1400 years and are incapable thinking.

Although this story is a ludicrous, the fact that narcissists are known to refuse offers to save their pride is a well known fact.

Narcissist are extremely careful about self preservation and are willing to burn the world in order to save their own august and important self. However, what really matters to a narcissist most is his pride. They will even accept death for their pride.  Saddam Hussein was a good example. In the war of 2003, he was offered to take his stolen wealth and go and live in Russia, but surrender Iraq without dragging it into war. He refused. Partly because he was fooled by the French whom he thought would save him at the end and party because his pride was too important for him.

Hitler fought to the last minute a losing war and committed suicide before surrendering. All a narcissist has, is his pride. You take that away and nothing is left. For the narcissist, “death in dignity is better than life in dishonor,” These were the final words of Jim Jones when he goaded his followers to drink from the cyanide laced Cool Aid.

The problem with you Donald is that you chose a wrong subject to refute. You probably would have not made a complete ass of yourself had you chosen a subject you were more familiar with, like pedophilia, raid or rape. You don’t know anything about narcissism and there you are trying to discredit Sam Vaknin the man that many call one of the most authoritative people on the subject.  You took a bite of something that was too big for your mouth. Hopefully, this experience will serve you as a lesson. Next time challenge someone of your own size.  You don’t want to get your nose bloodied in the first round and become the laughing stock of the world.  

The following is the recapitulation of this long drivel. Here is where Donald is beating his chest and celebrating his victory. I am not going to respond to it because it’s answered above.  

 

CONCLUSIONS

Most people I have debated, over the years, have been Christian missionaries. I have to admit that my experience in debating ex-Muslims, turned atheists or Christians is limited. Since 9 11 we have seen an increase in the works of such people like Ali Sina and others like Irshad Manji. It is a responsibility for the Muslims to answer their call and expose their flawed logic and misrepresentation of Islam. In my investigation into this phenomena, I have found that people like Ali Sina base their argument on ‘cultural Islam’. In my travels throughout South East Asia, I have seen these how culture and innovation seep into the teachings of Islam, turning it into something that resembles true Islam. Some people can’t distinguish the difference between the taste of real sugar and fake sugar (sweetener), but for those of us who can, we taste the sweetness of true Islam, everyday in our lives!

The question of what was proven in my first half of the debate comes into question. Thus far, I was able to prove the following:

1.     Ali Sina uses sources that are considered unqualified

2.     Ali Sina injects his opinions, based on unqualified sources when speaking about narcissism or NPD.

3.     Ali Sina uses half truths to prove his arguments

4.     Show aspects from Muhammad’s life that are no typical traits of a person who suffers from NPD.

5.     Show that the examples Ali Sina uses in the life of Muhammad to prove he had NPD are incorrect

In a court of law all the defense has to do to attain an acquittal of any charge is show reasonable doubt. I believe that in this first part of the debate, I have done just that. Not only was I able to prove reasonable doubt, I also proved that the prosecution (Ali Sina) has put into evidence articles that are grossly questionable and that he bases his case on faulty interpretation and discreditable witness testimony.

It is now up to Ali Sina to prove the following, if he wants to save face with his readers:

1.     Prove that source (i.e Dr. Sam Vaknin) is a qualified psychiatrist or doctor in the field of mental disorders.

2.     Prove that the examples I used from the life of Muhammad are fabricated (believe me he can’t).

3.     Answer for the misleading information he uses from the Quran to prove his point (making a statement and then putting beside it a Quranic reference, refer to page 61 of his book)

4.     Answer for the misleading information he says comes from the lips of Muhammad (says Muhammad said so-and-so but does not give a reference of footnote, refer to page 62 of his book)

I would like to end this part of my debate by quoting from the Quran and the Hadith.

‘Muhammad is no more than a messenger and indeed (many) messengers have passed away before him…’ (Surah 3, verse 144)

The prophet Muhammad said: ‘Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians exaggerated in their praise the son of Maryam(Jesus). For indeed I am a slave, so say, ‘The slave of Allah and His Messenger’

 Such eloquent words to be found in the Quran and lips of Muhammad! Does this sound like a man who wants to be a God (as Ali Sina insists)? Are these the words of one who suffers from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)? I leave the answer to these questions to the reader of this part of the debate.

           

Short URL: http://www.archive2012.faithfreedom.org/?p=5059

Posted by on Apr 3 2009. Filed under Debates. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

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  31. ibrahim

    Where is the response to the second part of his his writeup?

  32. ibrahim

    Donal Duck says

    Not only was I able to prove reasonable doubt, I also proved that the prosecution (Ali Sina) has put into evidence articles that are grossly questionable and that he bases his case on faulty interpretation and discreditable witness testimony.

    Does'nt he sound like a narcissist too?

  33. AMIM

    krishna786 Says:

    [show me one continent where hindus are not in sizable nos.]

    There are about 0.8-1.0 billion Hindus in the world, although most of them do not believe in this inhumane and barbaric cult, and more than 90% of them live in India. So, what are you talking about! Yes, there are some Hindus in every continent but their # is not mentionable at all. Even you can find some Sikh in every continent!

  34. Marie

    AMIM wrote:

    Typical missionary logic! Sounds like you are writing from a church attached with clinic? You proved to be a devil worshipper as your god was tempted by the devil! Can you deny this fact?

    Lets not forget Muhammed was fooled by Shaitan ( Satan ). Remember the Satanic verses. I wonder if that was the only time Shaitan fooled Muhammed.

  35. Anti-Jihad

    #55:

    Considering all the ridiculously evil things perpetrated by Mo-ham-mad, I wouldn't be surprised if Mo-ham-mad was in fact the reincarnation of the Devil itself!

  36. Marie

    Anti-Jihad wrote:

    Considering all the ridiculously evil things perpetrated by Mo-ham-mad, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mo-ham-mad was in fact the reincarnation of the Devil itself!

    He was and that is why nobody was allowed to draw a picture of him, because the horns on his head would have given him away.

  37. Marie

    ‘Narcissists do not directly promote themselves. They hide behind the veneer of modesty, while they elevate their god, ideology, cause or religion, which in reality is their own alter ego. They may present themselves as mere messengers, simple, humble, self-effacing heralds of this or that mighty and all-powerful deity, or all-encompassing cause, but they make it clear that they are the only ones who know the cause and are extremely intolerant and unforgiving of dissenters and recalcitrants’

    This passage automatically set off ‘red flags’ for me when I read it. The reason it raised suspicion is because there was no footnote attached. This statement did not come from a reference or a ‘qualified’ resource. It didn’t even come from Dr. Sam Vaknin fake Ph.D. Where did this passage come from? If it came from some resource, Ali Sina would have listed it in a footnote! If this statement did not come from a reference or resource it must have come directly from Ali Sina himself. I asked myself again and again, why Ali Sina would place this in his book if it didn’t come from a qualified psychiatric professional. Then, like a ton of bricks, the answer hit me. This is Ali Sina’s ‘back up’ plan. This is the ‘backdoor’ by which Ali Sina can escape when confronted with overwhelming evidence. In a sense, this is the ‘cop out’ Ali Sina can use at his discretion when proof of Muhammad not suffering from NPD is brought to the table. It occurred to me that it doesn’t matter how many examples from the Hadith or the Quran, about Muhammad, that would disqualify him as being a NPD sufferer were brought to the table because in the end, Ali Sina could always use his ‘back up’ plan or ‘backdoor’ by saying:

    This statement could be used to disqualify any evidence or proof that is brought up by myself or others. I know that by the end of this debate, Ali Sina will use this excuse, or one like it to wiggle his way out of the evidence I bring forth. All I ask is that the readers remember one thing. This statement about NPD did NOT come from a qualified professional! It is the workings and ideology of Ali Sina, who is NOT a qualified psychiatrist, nor an authority on the subject of mental disorders or narcissism. If the readers of this debate are able to see beyond this obvious deception, made by Ali Sina, they, like me, can say that this statement is worthless, as it did not come from a qualified reference or resource. Thus, it can’t be used in the argument.

    Those characteristic traits of NPD are mentioned in the book People of the Lie by Dr. M. Scott Peck.

  38. rajiv12

    Donald is well versed in English and he did throw some challenging questions, but Ali Sina responded to them in his usual confident style. In my opinion Donald lost early on when he brought `Gabriel` into the debate. A fatal mistake so to say.

  39. Marie

    rajiv12

    Donald is well versed in English and he did throw some challenging questions, but Ali Sina responded to them in his usual confident style. In my opinion Donald lost early on when he brought `Gabriel` into the debate. A fatal mistake so to say.

    It is clear this man lives in a fantasy that is not tuned to reality.

  40. Sumanyu

    follow this link http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Allah

    i the conclusion part

  41. Shamsher

    Kamina Musalla Amim says:

    There are about 0.8-1.0 billion Hindus in the world, although most of them do not believe in this inhumane and barbaric cult, and more than 90% of them live in India.

    What does numbers got to do with truth, you harami?

    Islam is a chutia`s faith. Now, you`d better quit islam, find out where your ancestry comes from (if it was human) and get connected with human race. Or, just blow yourself up in a madrassa (taking away a few more kamina mussalmans like yourself to your sick allah`s den).
    Got it harami, or you need some more lessons.

  42. proudchristian

    Faithinone,

    Please refer to my comment #26 where I told you to mark my words. Okay this is for you now.
    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/04/20

  43. indiafirst

    AMIM

    on your point on 90% hindus in india, thats a strength, not weakness. You muslims are parasites. Have you ever built anything on your own? You are exactly like a parasite that clings on to a body, sucks blood, moves on to the next one. And inspite of the muslim marauders who have tried to overtake india for 100s of years, india has only flourished…

    i am hoping for some divine intervention when oil wells dry up in saudi…that will be the day islam will run out of petro dollars and its downfall will begin…

  44. proudchristian

    My comment to faithinone is awaiting moderation and have no idea what is the problem. Trying again, faithinone yesterday I told you that it will not take long a mosque will be bombed in pakistan. Here is the link and read yourself. I'm not a prophet, I just read times. Also, the Lord told us that men do not gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles. Here is the link:
    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/04/20

  45. Anti-Jihad

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT: THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS AN INDISPENSABLE READ FOR AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS

    (http://www.masada2000.org/Islam-Rules.html)

    WARNING FROM A FORMER MUSLIM

    I was born and raised as Muslim. My whole family is still Muslim. I know every genetic code of Muslim. I know Islamic brain. I live and breath with them. I am an insider. I left Islam when I understood that Islam is a sick and evil religion. The following are the Islamic message to the West.

    To the infidels of the West:

    The Constitution for the new Islamic Republics of EuroArabia and AmerIslamia is under construction.

    We will fight the infidel to death.

    - Meanwhile American laws will protect us.
    - Democrats and Leftist will support us.
    - N.G.O.s will legitimize us.
    - C.A.I.R. will incubate us.
    - The A.C.L.U. will empower us.
    - Western Universities will educate us.
    - Mosques will shelter us
    - O.P.E.C. will finance us
    - Hollywood will love us.
    - Kofi Annan and most of the United Nations will cover our asses.

    Our children will immigrate from Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Indonesia and even from India to the US and to the other Western countries. They will go to the West for education in full scholarship. America is paying and will continue to pay for our children’s educations and their upbringing in state funded Islamic schools.

    We will use your welfare system. Our children will also send money home while they are preparing for Jihad.

    We will take the advantage of American kindness, gullibility, and compassion. When time comes, we will stab them in the back. We will say one thing on the camera and teach another thing to our children at home. We will give subliminal messages to our children to uphold Islam at any cost. Our children in America will always care more about Islamic Country’s interest than US interest.

    We will teach our children Islamic supremacy from the very childhood. We will teach them not to compromise with Infidel. Once we do that from the very early age our children won’t hesitate to be martyr. We will take over the Europe first and then US will be the next. We already have a solid ground in the UK, Holland, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Germany, and now in the US.

    Our children will marry Caucasian in Europe and in America. We will mixed with intricate fabric of the Western society but still will remember to Jihad when time comes. Who are we?

    We are the “sleeper cells”.

    We will raise our children to be loyal to Islam and Mohammad only. Everything else is secondary.

    At the time of the real fight we will hold our own children as our armor. When American or Israeli troops shoot at us the world will be watching. Imagine,… Imagine the news in the world “Death of Muslim babies by infidels”.

    We know CNN, ABC, CBS are broadcasting live. Al-Jazeera will pour gasoline on the fire. The news will spread like wildfire. “Americans killed 6 babies, 10 babies”. “Jews killed two women”,

    Keep your Nukes in your curio cabinets. Keep your aircraft carrier or high-tech weaponry in the showcase. You can’t use them against us because of your own higher moral standard. We will take the advantage of your higher moral standard and use it against you. We won’t hesitate to use our children as suicide bomber against you.

    Visualize the news flash all over the world, …Moslem mother is sobbing, ….crying. ….Her babies are killed by Jews and Americans, the whole world is watching live. Hundreds of millions of Muslims all around the world are boiling. They will march through Europe. We will use our women to produce more babies who will in turn be used as armor/shield. Our babies are the gift from Allah for Jihad.

    West manufactures their tanks in the factory. We will manufacture our military force by natural means, by producing more babies. That is the way it is cheaper.

    You infidels at this site cannot defeat us. We are 1.2 billion. We will double again. Do you have enough bullets to kill us?

    On the camera:

    - We will always say, “Islam is the religion of Peace.”
    - We will say, “Jihad is actually inner Jihad.”
    - Moderate Muslim will say there is no link between Islam and Terrorism and the
    West will believe it because the West is so gullible.
    - Moderate Muslim all over the world will incubate Jihadist by their talk by defending Islam.
    - Using Western Legal system we will assert our Sharia Laws, slowly but surely.
    - We will increase in number. We will double again.

    You will be impressed when you meet a moderate Muslim personally. As your next-door neighbor, coworker, student, teacher, engineer, professionals you may even like us. You will find us well mannered, polite, humble that will make you say, “wow, Muslims are good and peaceful people”, But, we will stab you in your back when you are sleeping as we did on 911.

    There will be more 911 in Europe and in America. We will say, “We do not support terrorism but America got what it deserved.”

    Muslims, CAIR, ISNA, MPAC and other international Islamic Organization will unite. We will partner with Leftist, ACLU, with Koffi Annan, and the UN, and if we have to then even with France. Fasten your seatbelt. The war of civilizations has just begun.

    We will recite Quran and say Allah-Hu-Akbar before beheading infidels, as we have been doing it. We will video tape those and send it to all infidels to watch. They will surrender – ISLAM means surrender.

    We will use your own values of kindness against you.

    You are destined to loose.

    Must be very depressing for you. Isn’t it?

    Allah-Hu-Akbar
    as we say just before beheading.

    21st Century Islamic Warfare: Muslims Vs. the West
    - Let’s see the effectiveness of Islamic warfare –

    THE RULE HAS CHANGED. There is new game in town.

    Bill Clinton ordered 50 Tomahawks Cruise missiles costing $100,000,000 each to destroy $50 mud houses that belonged to Osama’s family. What a stupidity? What a poor ROI (Return On Investment)! And then Bush went into Iraq!

    In return Osama’s attack on the US.
    Cost: 19 martyrs and less than $500,000.
    Cost to the West: over 3,000 dead.

    At least $1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) dollars economical loss in one year. This includes the ripple effect.

    Osama’s ROI with respect to: life = 3,000/19 = 158 fold.
    Dollar = $1 tr./500K = 2,000,000 fold

    That is modern warfare. The West will loose.

    Allah-Hu-Akbar

    Islam will rule the world. There is nothing you can do. Even if the per capita GDP of the world drops to half of its present level as a consequence of Islamic laws in place all over the world but still Islam will rule the word.

    From your point of view we bring to the world to the dark ages, so be it. But still Islam wins, West looses.

    Are you sure you want to play this game?

    Jihad, ..Jihad…Jeeehaaad…

    You are destined to loose.

    Allah-Hu-Akbar

    Saudi Arabia’s $100 billion investment over the last 3 decades on over 60 thousands Madrassas and school all over the Islamic world is finally paying off. While the West was busy inventing medicine, increasing life expectancy, elevating human suffering, decoding human gene to find cure for Cancer, heart disease etc, launching space shuttle, inventing internet, working on new laws/theory for human rights, developing better economical models for a more prosperous world, while ACLU was gaining control over common sense, while American ingenuity was benefiting the rest of the world, we Muslims were busy producing over 200 million out of 1.4 billion, Walking, Talking, Non-Thinking, West-Hating, Pre-Programmed, Suicidal, Parasitic, Terrorist Robots. You can’t win. The Genie is out of the bottle.

    We will use American’s kindness, fairness, compassion, freedom of speech and non-discriminatory policy against them. We will stab them in the back.

    What are you going to do? You are doomed.

    VERDICT: IT’S TIME TO WAKE UP!

  46. faithinOne

    Dear Demsci,

    I understand the fact that it may be hard for somebody to trust or understand a particular message. That is mainly the fact that we have so many faiths in the world. In islam the concept of guidance is very personal.

    To understand Islam one has to look at it from an honest perspective. To understand the basic concept of this belief you have to understand Islam from its foundation. Islam is the everlasting deen (religion) It didn’t begin with Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
    We Muslims believe that the life we have is a test to see who has fulfilled his/her duty towards his/her creator. God gave us a sense of right and wrong and gave us the freedom to choose between right and wrong. In order for us to understand what is right or wrong God prescribed the right path to man or else how would man distinguish between right or wrong ? Now this is the right path that God showed man from the day Adam was created. The right path has remained the same since inception of humanity. As generations of men progressed different Prophets were sent to remind, correct and lead people. These Prophets were sent with knowledge and inspirations that they used to spread the message of righteousness and remind people of their true duty unto their God. The lineage of prophethood continued until God sent Prophet Muhammad who did the same. We Muslims call this straight/ right path Islam. This is our faith as Muslims

    Now you may not accept this view. That is fine. Because, God’s pleasure is not in the numbers but in the sincerity of the hearts that believe in him. Islam has been subject to criticism and so have many religions of the world. The intention of the criticism is also of relevance in any debate. I may criticize an aspect of a religion to better understand the logic behind it or I may be part of a faith and would like to criticize a custom that I feel is not representative of my faith. These are legitimate reasons for criticism. Now after drawing my conclusions from a criticism I may simply reject a logic irrespective of it being right or wrong. Even in that case its fine. But what happens on this site goes beyond criticism.

    This site has a catchy slogan “aim to promote human rights and democracy among Muslims.
    We oppose Islam, not Muslims. We are against hate, not faith”
    But if anyone is honest to their heart they will agree that this site is nothing but a site which is dedicated to a personal attack on the life and character of our Prophet peace be upon him. Now does right to criticize extend to insulting. What sort of bias standards does this site set? When the stated aim of the site suggests that this site aimed at promoting human rights and democracy AMONG MuSLIMS. Clearly there is a disjoint between its professed objective and the real sinister intention. It can be reflected in the quality of articles that are published in the site and the comments that follow it. I hope that these anti-socials are confined to the fantasy of their cyber domains. The society as a whole rejects this hate agenda. The site may have more than 13 million visitors but we can see that a small hate filled gang sticks around. It is also interesting that those people who take assumed culturally Muslim names and pretend to be apostates seem to celebrate Zionist or Hindutva superiority. Its strange that all the so called apostates find these ideologies to be accommodative of their hate towards Islam. Also this site simply appeals to the genocidal hindutva brigade that has a Nazi style cleansing approach towards the minorities in India. These people deceive others by hiding their religious agenda in the name of nationalism. Thank God very few people fall in their trap and hence they are miserable failures in society. Thus they vent their anger herE in these hate filled sites.One should examine the comments on this site and the contents of the articles and especially the challenge of this individual who only knows how to spread hate.

    It is also unfair to believe that the criminality of this insult changes if its done in a private or a public domain. A crime is a crime irrespective of where and when it is committed. Any expression of idea that is intended to hurt someone’s feeling or belief is excluded from the realm of criticism. Can you insult the Judicial system of any land. Why isn’t contempt of the court of law legally dismissed by the idea of right to criticism. Any civil society will not expect this idea that criticism and insults are same.

    When you state that critics of Islam are against violence I have my strong reservations on that. You have to understand that these so-called critics after all their seemingly scholarly discourses agree in consensus that the there is one ‘final solution’. That is eradicating Islam. To a Christian if someone was to suggest that the eradication of Christianity is the only solution. Would that be an innocent and comforting statement for any of the Christians. Likewise if we see that the a majority of the political establishment in Israel seems to believe that the mere fact that Iran’s presidents stupid and politically manipulative comment on Israel to be ‘wiped’ off the map called for strong reactions so much so that logically it might have sounded right when the establishment was for the most part Okay with the idea of a pre emptive strike against Iran

    These individuals don’t call for violence what they do intend to achieve is to scare others in society. They want to weaken the resolve of the society to co-exist and create a phobia (much admitted by some of the individuals commenting on this site from their login names) and create a situation whereby ordinary people find divine justice in the suffering of the Muslim communities.

    Religion is nothing but the name we selectively give to our understanding of God and his purpose. Islam transcends these petty ideologies and does not limit itself in time and space. Its plain simple lying when repeated charges of pedophilia is framed to show a sense of abuse or exploitation to what was a civil and culturally acceptable matrimony. These cheap allegations of narcissism is zealously leveled in order to examine an individual in the light of one’s own deviant fantasy. If any one looks at this obsessive promoter of the site and examines his extreme views on specific individuals he only ends up appearing like a person with mental challenges. His cynicism and negativity lies exposed in his new found obsession of personally attacking the current American President.

    I only urge readers not be deceived by these hate-filled individuals and affect their personality. They are anti-socials. We must simply refuse to be bullied into their mindset. They expect debate with cheap abuses and ridicule. This is their mindset and I would like all to be freed from this regressive attitudE

  47. Anti-Jihad

    "I only urge readers not be deceived by these hate-filled individuals and affect their personality. They are anti-socials. We must simply refuse to be bullied into their mindset. They expect debate with cheap abuses and ridicule. This is their mindset and I would like all to be freed from this regressive attitudE"

    "Hate-filled?" On what grounds? Islamophobia? So when Muslims critisize Israel's foreign policy, are Muslims not being hate-filled individuals too because they are "anti-Semitic"?

    "Anti-Socials?" According to who? From you? A mullah like yourself whose only mission in life is the prosleytization of Islam until your sick religion dominates the world?

    "They expect debate with cheap abuses and ridicule?" Really? Is this all you have? The debating medicine of ad hominem and tu quoques in the face of dealing with wounds inflicted by reason? And aren't you aware, if you can disprove Ali Sina's charges against pedophile Mo, you can win $50,000!

    "regressive attitudE" Look at the Muslim countries and tell me which ones allow the freedom of religion.

  48. Demsci

    Dear FaithInOne,

    Thank you for answering me so respectfully and extensively. I cannot answer all of what you say, but I love to respond to some of it. At the heart of our matter lies the distinction many people, even my own (Christian) sister, make between criticism and insulting, which I don't. I cannot speak for others about their intention of criticism, but for me it is to create a better society. For me that would mean worldwide democracy and the promotion of science in an effort to raise the prosperity and happiness of mankind. Because to me science on the whole makes the best effort to find the truth. And I believe finding more truth provides more prosperity and happiness in the long run. Science also extends to History. And history-science just has to criticise religion sometimes when religion makes claims that are contrary to what history-science finds. In the ground, in manuscripts, after much research and debating. And in many, many ways, criticism is useful, it must have brought us very much progress. And science is fully prepared (or at least it should be) to admit that it was wrong when new facts or better theories arise. In fact it takes pleasure in for ever improving its theories. And it admits that what is asserted are ONLY theories, NOT certainties.

    Since a few centuries we have democracy in Holland and when I grew up I was often shocked, even shaken, by the really very harsh criticisms that went on between political parties, on TV, in the papers, in society. This was when there were almost no Muslims in Holland. I was raised a Christian and I remember how saddened I often was when the Christian faith was savagely being ridiculed, mostly by Socialist people. In parliament, cabaret, among my colleagues. But I learned to accept this, to see that democracy just is not for whimps. And everybody drew the line clearly at violence, which should never be condoned. Now of course you do not like the people who originated and visit this site, but this is how democracy operates.

    I am sorry, but I really do admire Ali Sina, who like me believes in democracy and science and is opposed to any kind of violence, but is a very fierce debater. He explained his motives extensively here and I understand them. He can be very civil, but he just has to criticise some debate-opponents, who criticise him very hard too, as do you. And don't forget the very real death-threats he faces, either.

    Eradicating Islam indeed sounds very harsh, and I myself would "only" aim for democracy in all Islamic countries in the long run, but Ali Sina means to try this without any kind of violence to Muslims whatsoever. He does not hate them and I don't either. I have good relations with a lot of Islamic colleagues/ neighbors, whom I like very much for their hospitality, warmth, humor and more. To me they are an enrichment of our society. But when it comes to discussing Islam or related political issues with them, they always get upset very soon or avoid these issues altogether. This happens also when they criticise America and Israel, which they do quite often, and very harshly too. Now these 2 countries I love since my childhood, as many Dutch people do. But I know that I myself and my friends/ favorites also have many faults. So I can take a whole lot of criticism (insults) on them and take it seriously, learn a lot from it.

    Thank you again, for inspiring me to respond. I commend you for your "courage under fire", talking on a site you know shocks and hurts you every time. I hope you keep up this willingness to debate, think, speak rationally. As you are clearly very smart and well-spoken. And I hope also that you speak as candid about these topics with your fellow believers as you do with us here.

  49. Anti-Jihad

    "As you are clearly very smart and well-spoken. And I hope also that you speak as candid about these topics with your fellow believers as you do with us here."

    Do not show weakness in the face of a lamb in wolfs sheep.

  50. Anti-Jihad

    #63: Correction: "Do not show weakness in the face of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

  51. SK

    Funny guy Donald…the problem with muslims are that they believe blindly of someone who said all this rubbish 1400+ years ago but can't think logically, rationally or believe someone like Dr Ali Sina who is exposing the truth now- right in front of their eyes. Even that Mohammad were to come down at this time to tell that he faked the whole thing, these muslims will never beleive and may come out with a fatwa to kill him…..hahahahahaha…….that is Islam………

  52. SandeepShreshtha

    Dear FaithinOne

    Till such time you learn to respect others from your heart, it is not possible to have a respectable conversation. Better still, teach all muslims around you to be faithful to the land that helps nourish their lives, don`t give any respectability of martyrdom to those who kill innocents, tell them that they are on wrong path.
    Most important is do grand reconciliaction with hindus in this way, they are same genetic stock afterall and have suffered together all through, then why do you want to kill innocents? Why do you want to harbour terrorists and do killings like what happened in Mumbai in Nov 2008? You give up providing shelter to such elements and rest assured hindus will be more than willing to embrace you.

  53. proudkafir

    As per the allah mera and sabka low day, anything and every thing the moscums do is right and any thing the kafirs do is wrong.A wrong presumption.If allah the pimp himself says he hates kafirs, where is the need to be respectfull to the maha low da mohammad and his pimp allah?
    Let us see how right moscums have been all over the world.Killing, raping, child molesting, destroying,rioting, robbing, thieving, lying etc are all traits of the foot soldiers of that pimp allah sabka low da. Neither I like allaha low da nor the maha low da mohammad nor the scum bag foot soldiers of the two evil.The first hate filled speech was the pimp allah.The kafirs are najjis, unclean! The bastard allah who taught you people to do dry wuddhu with dirt and you people( moscums) to wipe the back side with odd number of stones is najjis and so are the moscums.The muslimahs the burkhas stink from a mile. aggghh
    Stop the killing raping etc by your relatives of the kafirs first.

  54. faithinOne

    Dear Sandeep,

    It is ironical that you asked me to learn to respect. I would like to draw your attention to the comments you made in response to the my previos posts. I have had your dose of ridicule and insults. I believe you are simply not in a position to advise me to respect others. For the most part I have tried to be patient but I feel the sole intention of this site is to provoke anger amongst the few Muslim readers. Also it sounds strange that out of nowhere and no context you bring up this issue of me not knowing how to respect.
    As I grew up I have always felt that I have had to prove my patriotism more than someone who belonged to the majority community in my country. This has been the most catchy issue of anti-Muslim fundamentalists in my country. However by large ours is a tolerant society and I am proud that the agenda of hate is rejected by overwhelming mandate. In fact I would like to question the patriotism of people who sow seeds of hatred between communities and weaken our country. The agenda of hate that is pursued by the participants in this site is actually not only anti-national but anti-humanity,

    Our society is reconciled and had it not been for the few power hungry politicians that pursue the agenda of hate and incite mob violence against minority communities ours would be a most peaceful society. In fact the biggest threat that our country faces today is polarizing along community lines and repeats of anti-minority riots.

    As for the attacks on Mumbai it is important that the attacks were politically motivated and was orchestrated by the Pakistani establishment that is also bombing their own people in their western frontiers. It must be recalled that a large number of innocent Indians from all communities were targeted and the loss of lives of Muslims in those attacks should not be forgotten I find it irrelevant to quote numbers of Muslim deaths even though it constituted over a hundred. I think every victim of the attack is much a victim of that senseless violence irrespective of him being a Muslim or Hindu.

    Unfortunately we live in turbulent times where the power aspirants on both sides have made it incumbent upon themselves to divide and rule people with fear and intimidation. They all disguise their aggression in their religious and ideological identities. Sadly they have been successful in creating their hate cadre as represented by the foot soldiers of this fake pro-democracy site. Any reasonable person can read the comments and judge it.

    On a personal level I feel that the mere fact that I am Muslim is abhorrable to you. Thus, to you my honest goodwill shall not matter. I hope that someday you would come out of your mindset and look at any Muslim in the eye without hiding the intense hate that fills your heart. All your accusations are simply stereotypical views of Muslim communities fuelled and nurtured by fundamentalists anti-Gandhian elements of India. In general this biased view is rejected by our society as a whole. The results of the upcoming elections shall again be reflective of the united resolve of my country.

  55. Marie

    faithone wrote:

    In fact I would like to question the patriotism of people who sow seeds of hatred between communities and weaken our country. The agenda of hate that is pursued by the participants in this site is actually not only anti-national but anti-humanity,

    I have to question the patriotism of people who immigrate to a country and refuse to adopt to the society of their new home. I have to question the patriotism of people who segregate themselves into one area and call it a no-go zone ( nonbelievers are prohibited ). I have to question the patriotism of people who demand separate laws of their own in their adopted countries. I have to question the patriotism of people who want to bring back the caliphate and subjugate themselves to system that is not part of their adopted country. I have to question the patriotism of people who find Holocaust education offensive. I have to question the patriotism of people who force nonbelieving women to cover their head with a scarf who they would not be harassed by Muslim youths. I have to question the patriotism of people who immigrate to a country and overburden the countries welfare system because they will not do anything to help themselves. I question the patriotism of people who are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation and they do not speak the native language. I have to question the patriotism of people who refuse blind people with dogs and people who are drunk into their cabs because of what their religion says about animals and alcohol.

  56. SandeepShreshtha

    Mr FaithOne
    I thought there could be an iota of chance for you to seek improvement. From your posts, it doesn’t appear likely though. I will pick some points to give you a reply, may be you would understand:

    It is ironical that you asked me to learn to respect. ……….I believe you are simply not in a position to advise me to respect others.
    It is not question of belief, it is a bare fact that you must learn to respect others by being truthful and not practicing taquiyya. It insults people’s intelligence. This is so much into your apocryphal character because of being a muslim that you don`t even realize. I will give you proof of the same in this post as well, like it was there in your all previous posts that I saw.
    As I grew up I have always felt that I have had to prove my patriotism more than someone who belonged to the majority community in my country.
    Why don`t you seek reasons for it and work towards resolution rather than crying victim hood. Don`t you think this has become necessary after providing muslims a separate homeland of their choice, muslims still continue to bomb market places in India as well as places of religious worship of hindus, provide shelter to anti-social elements from Pakistan who cause mayhem, and many such similar activities.
    However by large ours is a tolerant society and I am proud that the agenda of hate is rejected by overwhelming mandate.
    That is indeed true and a happy situation.
    In fact I would like to question the patriotism of people who sow seeds of hatred between communities and weaken our country.
    You must question that and must begin with muslims who are the root cause of this. Others are mere reactionaries to Muslim`s deeds.
    Our society is reconciled and had it not been for the few power hungry politicians that pursue the agenda of hate and incite mob violence against minority communities ours would be a most peaceful society. In fact the biggest threat that our country faces today is polarizing along community lines and repeats of anti-minority riots.
    The biggest threat is muslim conglomeration, who incites religious violence tracing its origin from Quran and then cry victiomhood when are relatialed upon. This needs to be dealt with. Make your muslim coreligionists understand to behave like humans, desist from mindless violence and not be vote-banks of poiliticians.
    As for the attacks on Mumbai …….I find it irrelevant to quote numbers of Muslim deaths even though it constituted over a hundred.
    That is exactly I referred to as taquiyya and insult to the intelligence of others. This is a confirmed statistics with available names that muslim victims in that attack have been less than 40 (if you include the killers as well, the list is for all to see). You claim swollen numbers to orchestrate brazen victimhood, where as the fact was that the Indian muslims provided shelter and logistic support to those elements to perpetrate the attacks. One muslim man amim was openly praising those Ghazis right here at this site. Do you have no shame really for lying so openly?
    …….. Sadly they have been successful in creating their hate cadre as represented by the foot soldiers of this fake pro-democracy site
    You call such an important site where Islam is bared of all to see as fake. It is your bias really.
    On a personal level I feel that the mere fact that I am Muslim is abhorrable to you.
    It is not true. But honestly, I do suspect the muslim of his intentions when I deal with him. Despite that, I mean no harm to him and there is no abhorrence, I just want to protect myself.
    The results of the upcoming elections shall again be reflective of the united resolve of my country.
    Indeed.

  57. proudkafir

    Ah Thought as much.This guy is an Indian variety of moslem.
    He would like to bomb India in to stone age( where islamic states are) so that we all can bang our heads and daughters just like the moslems do.
    Our society !!! Please note our society is peaceful not because of or inspite of the raving lunatics that moslems are, but because the overwhelming majority are Hindus.The reason is simple and please don't take credit for the isalmic goons here as well.If you like islamic crap and the pedophile prophet so much you can kindly emigrate to the land next door.I shall be happy to buy you one way ticket and that too first class.Please dont come back as terrorist.Just a small favour.
    Islamic society is peaceful.Just take peek across at your brothers and sisters.Just ones.
    It's the moslem scum bags who wanted a separate land in the name of the pimp allah, rapist rasool maha loud ah mohammad and killed millions in the name of the bloody islam,This islam is evil to the core.That's beyond doubt.All these days kafirs were getting killed happened to be coloured.Now that whites are getting killed there is awakening.Till then no body bloody cared.
    I wil give you a small example to show the evil nature of islam.Soon after mumbai rioting one moslem goon and 1 hindu cretin were asked this question.What would you do if there is anti moslem rrioting and You find a hindu to the msolem scum bag and asked the hindu cretin what would you do if there is rioting and there is a moslem with you.
    The answers clearly show the evil of islam.The moslem simply said I will stab him to death.the hindu cretin kept saying, he will hide the moscum here and there etc,Thsi shows the majoriity scum bag moslems are the same every where.the indian variety used to be milder, but with the passage of time the real virulent strain has surfaced.I abhor, Islam for it is evil.I abhor the rapist Rasool who screwed his own daughter.I abhor moscums as they follow the pimp allah and the rapist rasool.What worries me is this.Moslems have sex with their own daughters and why will they spare any females? Just out of compassion? The merciful. compassionate allah said, kill the infidels where ever you see them.Either change the wordings of allah or be prepared to be slaughtererd
    I was also a very secular person before reading qrand ic raddy rubbish.It's filth.You people kiss the filth.Just out of sheer ignorance, you dont kiss sh! t. do you? OOr is it a moslem trait that they kiss sh1t all the time? the stink of qrand is spreading rapidly.If you have any sense at all leave the qrandic rubbish.Dont screw your daughter just like your rasool pedophile rapist did. Dont screw a 6 year old little girl, just like the rapist rasool did. Dont kill the innocents and kafirs,just like the rapist rasool did.You wil not only not get a stiff dik and 72 houries, but will roast in hell for sure, just like the rapist rasool did.
    Mumbai terrorism is due to hatred by the pimp allah . the rapist rasool has shown you all the way forward like screwing daughters, killing kafirs, looting, raping, marrying little children, screwing the women after killing their husbands( your scholars said rasool married! ha in the battle ground the mullahs were waiting to perform the screwing contract? Nikah the screwing contract. India is peaceful inspite of the raving lunatic moslems.That's because the hindus are fairly tolerant.The secular pimps (unfortunately hindus) are helping your community and the followers of the the rapist pedophile maha loud ah mohammad.Inspite of this we want to be peaceful.

  58. SandeepShreshtha

    Further Mr Faithone

    Religion is mysticism. Islam has lost it all. The challenge of this site and the fact that no muslim could overcome it is testimony to it.
    Take this challenge on Islam if you can in the questions that follow. Let me tell you that if you could answer these questions logically and convincingly, you have a chance to defend Islam and have meaningful conversation and meet Sina`s challenge:

    1. What is the spiritual significance of wool to the sufis? Why do they wear blankets in hot desert?
    2. What is Al Kaifa? What is its mystic significance?
    3. What is spiritual significance of loban in Islam? Why was Mohammad using it? Who introduced to him?
    4. Mohammad himself mentioned that there were 3 more mystics on the same mystic path before him (this is not in Koran and they were not Abraham Moses etc). Who were they?

    The quality of your responses would determine how honest you are. I am sure though that muslims have lost it all. Prove me wrong.

  59. average american

    How many in our mental hospitals think they are some messiah or another, or that angels have sent them, etc? Joseph Smith of Mormonism said that the angel Gabriel spoke to him. Supposedly he told Joseph that all of the Christian churches and ministers were totally false, and that he alone, was chosen to fix everthing and create the perfect church. He was given an entirely new book to straighten things out, after those Jews and Christians (you know how they are) supposedly changed the scriptures (in what way?). Funny thing is, he also had done quite a few shenninigans and immoral/illegal things. Yet God seemed to not notice those little details about his life. I see a lot of similarities between him and Muhammed.

  60. misab

    After the September 11, 2001 incident, lakhs of Americans studied & converted to Islam.Same is the picture

    around the globe.Nothing can stop it but Allah,the most gracious and the most merciful.Try to study about this

    religion if you want to succeed in this world and the hereafter.Otherwise,you will be sorry for your words and

    deeds.

  61. misab

    After the September 11, 2001 incident, lakhs of Americans studied about Islam & converted to Islam.Same is t

    the picture around the globe.Nothing can stop it but Allah,the most gracious and the most merciful.Try to study

    about this religion if you want to succeed in this world and the hereafter.Otherwise,you will be sorry for your

    words and deeds.

  62. misab

    After the September 11, 2001 incident, lakhs of Americans studied & converted to Islam.Same is the picture

    around the globe.Nothing can stop it but Allah,the most gracious and the most merciful.Try to study about this

    religion if you want to succeed in this world and the hereafter.Otherwise,you will be sorry for your words and

    deeds……………………………………………………….

  63. misab

    After the September 11, 2001 incident, lakhs of Americans converted to Islam.Same is the picture

    around the globe.Nothing can stop it but Allah,the most gracious and the most merciful.Try to study about this

    religion if you want to succeed in this world and the hereafter.Otherwise,you will be sorry for your words and

    deeds.

  64. Sanity

    Morgan wins!

    Pay up SINA!

  65. santiago

    This debate reminds me of that infamous t-shirt that says "What about all the good things that Hitler did?"

    Donald/Saadiq is trying to convince us that Muhammads 'good' words & deeds contradicts that of Ali Sina's accusations about Muhammad suffering from NPD.
    But the thing is that good always contradicts bad because they are polar opposites.Every murderer has done something seemingly good in his/her life,but is that reason enough to dismiss the charges if there's overwhelming evidence of the crime?Serial rapists get to repeat their offences because of their charm,'respect' for women,intellect & good public behaviour.They are hardly caught because their behaviour in public contradicts that of someone who's consumed with hatred & a sociopath.
    Ali Sina has shown us that there is overwhelming evidence in the Qur'an,Hadith & Sirat that Muhammad was a paedophile/rapist,robber & killer.If you couple that with someone who claims to be a prophet & god's divine messenger,then does that person qualifies to be suffering from narcissism?
    Ali Sina has won this debate long before it started.

  66. average american

    I think that the similarities between the two can be instructive.

  67. Ibn Kammuna

    Dear Mr. Morgan,

    Great job. Well done my son. "Ignorance is a Bliss". Now it is time for you to go take some college courses on Logic, Critical Analysis, Critical Thinking, Philosophical Investigations,..Well..you get the idea.
    and by the way, go quick to the closest clinic. You have a gushing bloody nose man..go quick..

  68. socratese

    Donald Morgan ,i ask you to know about of schizophrenia and see 'A beautiful mind" hollywood cinema.
    / /http://www.chovil.com// see this website.Mo sufered from this mental disorder and he asssumed all his ahllucinations and dilusions as gods revelations .Pepole with this disorder hear some sounds and words and even have some experices as dilusions .Mo was not a prophet at all.First you should know definition of the prophet or messenger or any enlightenment guru.He neither lead holy life nor never lead holy life.All morals are of islam are his referece morals.THe concept of god he preached is plagarised from judaism and stories are all twisted versions of christianity,judaism and pagan idol worshippers.If read Quron you will find many contradictions and blunders.Every chapter allah praises himself and all ways threanehell fire.Ironocally that ot only desret palm fire not any other betteer fire.Mo s paradiese is full of desert trees,date palm fruits ,and water springs flowing which are desert mans imaginations.A person from country like india will imagine his paradise with mango fruits and take wood trees.person from england may imagne paradise of apple trees.person from Us with redwood treees and cherry fruits.All quron is mohammads imaginations and hallucinations.A frog in well thinks only well is the wrold and he(frog )is the king and owner of well.don'tbe frog there is some thing else and more you should know.You should read scriptures of other religions to really understand the god and holy ways life.I suggest You toread life anad conversationds of Bhagwan buddha.If you taste suger,honey and nector then only you can judge the differences.If you live in the desert and confine to desert area only hen you believ that onnly desert palm tree is the best ,tallest and most useful.Come out of desert there are many relatively better useful ,taller trees and fruits are present like coconut,mango and redwood trees.Mo was not only evil he was mad also.All the present day terrorists and isamic invaders way of dark night wars,cheating,destroying,buring kaffirs temples and universities(eg Nalanada,Alexandria),beheading weapon less people are all got insiration from mad and evil mohammad.This Maha Mada(great evil) caused world greaest disaster.Mental slaves and weakminded irrationnal people are his strength.Islams strength is ginorence and darkness.It doesn't have logic,morals and compassion to stand on.don't get feared by psuedo hell or lured by psuedo animalistic pradise of sex.Sex is not for primarily for pleasure ,it is for progeneration .It is need for nature.Pleasure in sex is only associated with it just as hungry feel is associated in stomach as for biosignal indication to maintain body.sex and pleasure are controlled by different mechanisms.Ask any medico.then why you need to trust mohammad who was mad and lier.don't want to know the truth.Mohammad animalistic abnormal lust of sex ,marrying of daughter in law( and escaping in the name of allah) destroying drinking water wells,buring of trees are all evil and madly terroristic .If you really want peace and enlightenment then follow any other relatively better faiths.Islam is not for peace or enlightenment.It is for destruction and hate in the fear of psuedo hell and in the want of psuedo paradise.

  69. ibrahim

    I would like to ask the Americans on FFI, if its true that the Mormons believe that Yaweh actually is an alien living on some plannet and that Jesus and Lucifer are actually brothers and all the angels are actually children of Yaweh. I watched a video yesterday on Youtube, it was about the beliefs of the Mormons and I could not really what I saw with my own two eyes.

  70. socratese

    A person suffering from severe pains of injuries may escape from them throgh pain killers or intoxication of alcohaol or narcotics.but does he really happy and cured them?ignorence is bliss!!! you shoul not be ignorence.You should have enough courage and inclination to know the truth.You should not run away from the bitter pill of medicine.You are free to use your own brain rationally with logic and reason.It is your right and gift from anture.Animals can not do this.No need to blindly follow what others have said.self declared prophets hammer our rationality and damge you brain with false fears of hell and lure of paradise.First know what you want?Seacrh for it where it exists.Other wise keep quiet but not get into madnessof islam and blindly belive fake prophet Mo.

  71. Demsci

    Knowing next to nothing about Narcissism I cannot give a good verdict on who won the debate on that special subject. So just maybe there is reasonable doubt. But to me the examples of the life of the Prophet given by Saadiq (Donald) seemed no good exonerations of him. I think Saadiq can't make such clear-cut conclusions as he does, based on the evidence. For me it is OK only if it is just his opinion. But I would have thought that the group or religion with the extraordinary claims has the burden of proof, not the refuters of these claims, like Ali Sina, Irshad Manji (who is still a Muslima!), Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Brigitte Gabriel, Geert Wilders. All these people want is free democratic societies, preferably all around the world as they prefer these to all sorts of dictatorship-states, many of them Islamic states. If Islam were just a way of life, people could choose this "sweet" way of life, because they judged it to be very useful, effective, simply the best way of life. Letting others choose other ways of life if they want. Even their own offspring, easily, like with changing jobs, living places or suppliers. Let the best way of life win, hey? But Islam claims to be the ONLY way, the truest way. It claims the Quran was dictated by Allah, that Mohammed was HIS messenger, the latest and final one and much more. By asserting that, Muslims indeed have a big burden of proof! Otherwise choosing a religion is no more than a big gamble or just based on subjective feelings. It is great that Saadiq sees the responsibility of the Muslims to answer the call of the Islam-critics. I hope many more follow his own example. All we Democrats really ask is to be reasonable, to work out our differences in dialoque, use our democratic rules, however faulty they seem at times. When debates like this are common, our youths can see the information, the logical arguments and make good informed choices. Just asserting that the opponents only use lies, half-truths, faulty logic, misrepresentation won't cut it. Debaters have to make efforts, use good logic, show good sources, be as honest as they can. Can and will many Muslims do that? And yes, they can discredit the position of their opponents sometimes, yes they can make parts of their religion seem possibly true, but can they argue convincingly that the whole is true? Without reasonable doubt?! It seems to me that nowadays ex-Muslims and Islamologists have about as much knowledge (and experience!) of Islam as the Muslim scholars do and that they bring loads and loads of information and good arguments. So in honest comprehensive debate Muslims are now in dire straits, I think.

  72. AMIM

    Veda Says:

    [How do u expect Christians to accept the horrible things in New Testament when u do not accept the horrible things in Quran which Ali Sina has pointed out in this site???]

    Please use your own brain instead of others'. Have you ever seen a Muslim quoting any verse from the articles of Hindu/Christian haters to attack Hinduism/Christianity? No. You have admitted that I didn't quote the above Biblical verses out of context neither did I distort the verses. So, why are you asking me to read Ali Sina's garbage to know about the Quran? Why don't you read the Quran yourself. Please have trust on yourself, not on Ali Sina! He is a fake Christian Missionary masquerading as ex-Muslim to attack Islam and Muslims. So, don't be fooled by his deception.

  73. indiafirst

    amim

    if there is any distortion, its distortion of koran that u know of….be a good muslim..follow koran as it is….i think u should go to NWFP in pakistan where true koran is being implemented…

  74. AMIM

    indiafirst,

    Unlike your hindutva india, Muslims are spreaded all over the planet earth. You are probably living in a village of india who only know about his enemy Pakistan!

  75. Islamophobic

    To #24.

    Dear FaithinNone,

    "It has to be understood that God created man with the ability to chose between right and wrong. He sent his messengers to teach the difference between the two." So,you're allegedly saying that MuuuuuhCowMAD/Mumm-Ra-MAD was sent to tell me that XXXXXXX with dead rotten stinky corpses, camels,goats, pre-puescent girls, 'pearl-like boys', daughters-in-law is god-like action?

    Mr. Fathom , if god gave me the abiliy to choose between right and wrong, what for the need to send a primary school teachar like, and worst of it, a teacher like MuuuuuuHCowMAD? At least he could pay for a better Profit$$$$!

    "I think life is better spent following the path shown by our Prophet. We should simply refuse to be pulled back by these negatively motivated individuals."
    I agree with you. JIHAD and get WAR BOOTY! As for myself, whenever I see a Muslimah( an awra, vagina, according to his XXXXness the messenger of Piss, Mumm-RA-MAD), I'll enjoy her as tilth to my….

    "Our life is meant to be constructive and enjoyable" Wasn't music banned in Islam? I might be mistaken. When you say constructive, you mean like the war on Lebanon? Please, stay quiet and don't do anything constructive.

    "Hope some of the readers see the truth in Brother Donald’s arguments." I couldn't. The lenses of my glasses shattered when reading this. Could someone buy me some new glasses?

    Now, seriously. What's the name of the guy in that picture? Donald Duck? SaaatchinDick MuuuuCowMAD? May someone finally tell me?

  76. Veda

    "Please use your own brain instead of others’."
    Nice concept. Applies to u too.
    " Have you ever seen a Muslim quoting any verse from the articles of Hindu/Christian haters to attack Hinduism/Christianity? No."
    Not relevant to the point.

    'You have admitted that I didn’t quote the above Biblical verses out of context neither did I distort the verses.'
    Of Course. Coz. I am not a Christian . I am an atheist and have read the New Testament(NT). What u said about NT are facts.

    " So, why are you asking me to read Ali Sina’s garbage to know about the Quran? Why don’t you read the Quran yourself. Please have trust on yourself, not on Ali Sina!"
    I have read the Quran myself and I can say that whatever Garbage A
    He is a fake Christian Missionary masquerading as ex-Muslim to attack Islam and Muslims. So, don’t be fooled by his derception.

  77. Veda

    "” So, why are you asking me to read Ali Sina’s garbage to know about the Quran? Why don’t you read the Quran yourself. Please have trust on yourself, not on Ali Sina!”
    I have read the Quran myself and I can say that whatever Garbage ALi Sina writes on this site is the garbage reproduced from Quran. Quran and not Sina is responsible for the garbage.

    "He is a fake Christian Missionary masquerading as ex-Muslim to attack Islam and Muslims. So, don’t be fooled by his derception."
    Dont cast aspersions on Ali Sina blindly like this.

  78. kikl

    I had hoped that you had come to your senses AMIM. Unforunately, this is not the case. Islam is a death-cult invented by Muhammad in order to attain booty and women. Read the Qur'an:

    9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent (accept Islam) and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (paradise); they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the law, the gospel, and the Qur'an, and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded; that is the achievement of supreme.

    4:74: Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, – whether he is slain or gets victory – Soon shall we give him reward of great (value).

    4.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: So fight against the friends of Satan; feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

    8:12 …I will instill terror in the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them….

    If you believe in the above verses AMIM, then you are my enemy and I will fight you.

    Regards

    kikl

  79. krishna786

    46. AMIM Says:
    indiafirst,

    Unlike your hindutva india, Muslims are spreaded all over the planet earth. You are probably living in a village of india who only know about his enemy Pakistan!

    Dear amim show me one continent where hindus are not in sizable nos.

  80. skynightblaze

    @DONALD MORGAN

    Let me debunk donald here.

    Utba of Quraish tried to tempt muhhamad by offering him wealth and by promising to make him a chief.Let us reason here a bit from muhhamads point of view. Well let us say i am muhhamad and i accept the offer of quraish .The first problem is this would prove that i am claiming to be a prophet just for the sake of wealth. I would lose my followers. I would be called a mad man and a fake prophet. In such a situation what if quraish do not give me the wealth as promised? This would mean end of my means of livelihood for ever as well as my followers .

    Practically none would give their wealth to such a exposed mad man and make him their chief.This is common sense.How does muhhamad know that this was not a trap set up to expose him? . SO a wise criminal's answer to the offer will always be NO NO NO !!! Now I accept that this is a possibility and not a fact but should we draw conclusion based on just a single incident that he didnt crave for wealth and other stuff?

    IF Muhhamad was never a fan of wealth and women then why quran asks for 20 % loot for the messenger?. Why muhhamad consistently robbed people in the battles? Why did he consistently capture women in battles as sex slaves?
    Drawing a conclusion on a single incident is stupidity. To understand muhhamad we should be seeing muhhamads consistency in his behaviour.

    Even if we assume that Muhhamad denied wealth,women on that particular occassion out of nobility we see in the history of islam that 9 /10 times this man robbed and took sex captives and on just one occasion he denied it.

    Should we still call this man noble depending on a single incident ignoring other 9 incidents where he is seen to be a monster looting and enslaving women?

    The point is to draw any conclusion one must see for the pattern of consistency in the behaviour of muhhamad. Sadly for DOnald Muhhamad did crave for wealth and women on more than 90 % of the times.

  81. Ibn Kammuna

    Let me get you started:

    Matthew
    10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/

    10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
    http://home.clara.net/arlev/matt030.htm

    Assuming you can understand biblical verses without trying to see what Christians say about those verses (i.e. background, context, etc..) is just ignorance.
    When we study Islam, we go to Islamic sources to understand the verses don't we? All researchers on this site do that.
    I can't give you links to all verses. i have many things to take care of today, but at least I got you started. Peace

  82. thetruth

    "This is a confirmed statistics with available names that muslim victims in that attack have been less than 40"

    Do muslims have to die in large numbers to prove their patriotism to you Sandeep? Do the lives of 40 muslims not matter? Did you not notice now many muslims mourned the death of the victims? Check this out http://blog.peaceworks.net/2008/11/muslims-mourn-… and this http://www.nowpublic.com/world/mumbai-attack-mour….

    Does it matter how many muslims died? Isnt it enough that the terrorist did not look at the victim's faith before pulling the trigger? Here is a spreadsheet of the victims of the mumbai attacks, I got it from the internet http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p_esnE-3Z3

    Just because some 'AMIM' praises the event doesn't mean that he is representative of the general muslim population. Please dont generalize. Iam Indian and will die an Indian and I will never want something bad to happen to my Country and my fellow Hindu brothers.

  83. SandeepShreshtha

    While calling yourself "thetruth" you appear to be stupid.
    Read the whole before commenting. My remark was in response to Mr Faith`s taquiyya remark of "more than 100 muslim deaths", an inflated number just to misrepresent facts and twist the course of his arguments.
    It goes without saying that even one innocent casualty to terror is a blot on humanity, with muslims bringing ample such blots on a daily basis.

    Do muslims have to die in large numbers to prove their patriotism to you Sandeep?
    Muslims really have to die in much larger numbers than the casualities they cause. That is one way of proving there resolve to fight terrorism. You are right there.
    Another way is to be proactive to prevent such happenings (these terrorists after all get moral and logistic support from the Indian variety of muslims). This amim is a sample of a much larger mindset. Thinking doesn`t appear to be your strong point.
    Iam Indian and will die an Indian and I will never want something bad to happen to my Country and my fellow Hindu brothers.
    That is because you have a good heart that feels compassion for fellow human. If only others also get like you, we will have a progressive country and beautiful world!

  84. SandeepShreshtha

    Isnt it enough that the terrorist did not look at the victim’s faith before pulling the trigger?

    I had seen the spreadsheet you posted even earlier and that was my reason for the earlier comment on casualty numbers. It is for all to see.

    Are you so gullible that the terrorists did not look at the faith of purported victims? Let me give you at least two instances:
    1. In Taj shootout, a Turkish couple was set free because of their religion while the American and British were shot at, they themselves declared on TV.
    2. Kasab`s admission that he and his cohort came out of cama hospital without shooting because he saw some muslim women, They had instructions not to cause casualties among muslims.
    Still, Muslim casualties happened by accident mostly at the CST.
    Don`t misrepresent facts, it is not a good practice. Confront the fact as they are, only then some solution could be found. Else it is mere rhetoric and counter-rhetoric.

  85. proudkafir

    The indian variety of the virus says he will die for India. Wow I am amazed.Oh brother pleae don't do that.The kafirs In India wil praise you, but your poop propet has told you all to kill kafirs, if you want 72 vaginas to screw and 28 little boys as well to play around with.
    I am sure you are aware of the string to this clause? Do you or not?
    Right fight in the way of allah and kill kafirs and get killed .You will straight go to heaven.Even before the pimp greets you the vaginas will be rubbing against you all the 72 of them and ofcourse the 28 boys, who look like scattered pearls.Your stiff dik will precede you in to this jannat.Iam already getting hard on.Thinking all those 72 vaginas untouched before,
    Ahhh get my suicide belt, take me to the kafir's place, restaurant or bus stand does not matter.Kill them all.
    Wait.Think and be rational??? You are not a moslem any more.Bahh lost your chance to get in to 72 vaginas and get to know( wink wink, you know whaat i meaan na?) 28 boys.This stupidity of moslems needs to be dispelled.
    Killing the kafirs who are najjis any way will not help in the cause of allah the pimp.does it?

  86. thetruth

    Sandeep I gave you a list of muslim casualties and you only give me two examples where they were let go. Let me give you another example where the terrorist did not look at faith. After the attacks I was reading which i think was The Telegraph. There was an article written by an hindu eyewitness who was present at the railwaystation where one of the attacks took place. He begins by saying that he had always blamed muslims for terrorism but that day changed his views. What he had witnessed was among the chaos a women dressed in a burqa (the traditional muslim clothing) was running to get away from the firing. The terrorist approached her and without batting an eyelid shot her point blank! This incident changed everything for him and he realized terrorism has no faith…

    Now how do you explain this Sandeep? Was this also an 'accident'? It is not the fault of muslims if they were not present at The Taj or Oberoi when the attacks took place. Where they were present they were killed. If i had given you an account from a muslim you would not have believed me. Did you not read the article where muslims did not celebrate Eid properly so to mourn the deaths of the victims?

  87. SandeepShreshtha

    Well, the conversation took another turn Thetruth.
    That is not to say muslim victims were any less victims than others. A victim ceases to be a muslim or hindu. s(he) returns to eternity prematurely without completing the mission that brought him/her into the world and it is incorrect to look at such precious loss of life through prism of religion.
    The example you gave somehow escaped my attention in the plethora of information of that mayhem that I was innundated with. It was truly sad indeed.
    I agree with you that these terrorists in their training lose touch with humanity, kill indiscriminately. It is not correct to assign religious attributes to such people.
    I was aware that many muslims did not celebrate id. Many other families did not celebrate new year eve. Some christian families did not celebrate X-mas. That was beacuse their compassion as humans was not lost.

  88. proudkafir

    The root cause of terrorism is islam, qrand the pedophile mohammad's rantings.The moltova cocktail aded to ignorance ,poverty and brain washing ( which all moslems do undergo from birth) can only lead to explosive islamic terrorism.ilsam is terrorism.there is no difference.

  89. dre_lw

    good on ya marie, you must be from oz… and plus the leader of sunni oz came overstaying visa and later given residency, taking welfare from infidel (lick own spit), and go overseas badmouthing the country that welcome him, can only happend in muslim brain, check this link, (find page 5 and see 'sheik down')
    http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&brand=ninemsn

    remember prediction of false prophecy, 'you can tell by the fruit they produced'

  90. dre_lw

    check out above link, this guy get busted with his own camera, yet still denied it, that how hypocrite and dumb they are

  91. ROGER

    WELL BY HEARING SUCH KIND OF COMMENTS I REACHED TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU ALL PEOPLE ARE JEOLOUS OF ISLAM THATS WHY YOU ARE SAYING THIS ISLAM IS NOW RAPIDLY SPREADING THROUGOUGH THE WORLD AND IAM VERY LUCKY THAT IAM NOW GOING TO BECOME THE PART OF THE GREAT RELEGION

    THANKS MR DONALD YOU COMMENTS WAS REALLY PRECIOUS

  92. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  93. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  94. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  95. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  96. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  97. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

  98. I haven’t checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last handful of posts are really great quality so I guess I’ll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it my friend. :)

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